[PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
Choinski, Burton
Burton.Choinski at matrixone.com
Mon Oct 2 19:48:23 CEST 2006
Of course, playing around like this just shows that some prices are just completely borked. Armors look okay, shields are SCREWED!
Armor Type Price Mater Labor Hours Days Years Cost/Month
Buckler 2 4 1 3 9 1 0 100
Small Shield 2 7 1.75 5.25 16 2 0 100
Banded Shield 3 30 4.5 25.5 39 4 0 200
Metal Shield 4 300 15 285 285 29 0 300
Dwarven Round 4 400 20 380 380 38 0 300
For 300CC for a metal shield, if talking materials being 5%, 38 days to make a metal shield!? Insanity!
Given that for plate armor in my calculations, material costs end up being 7.5CC per pound of final armor. Obviously using type 4 (giving 1.2CC/#) is incorrect (shields are not as labor intensive as armor). Even using type 2 gets material costs to get this close to plate (6.25CC/#) still has us at 23 days to make a friggen metal bowl with inside handles.
Yea, I know. "God kills a cat-girl whenever you bring up reality in a fantasy setting -- please think of the cat-girls".
But some prices need to be tweaked.
Back figuring a similar material cost for metal shield as for plate armor (actually, a bit lower), it seems that 75CC gets to something close. Fiddling around with the sheet, having a final price of 135CC (55% material cost) ends up with 61 hours, about 6 days to pound out 12 pounds of iron and finish it into a balanced and usable shield.
However, some additional tweaks in the armor section may be needed. Some real-world sources have hinted at about a year to make plate armor, which may indicate a need to reduce the price in order to get the time down.
(think of the cat-girls, think of the cat-girls...)
_______________
Burton Choinski | Principal Software Engineer | ENOVIA MatrixOne
210 Littleton Road | Westford, MA 01886
Office: 978 589 4089 | Fax: 978 589 5903 | Cell: 508 843 7183
burton.choinski at matrixone.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl [mailto:pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Choinski, Burton
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 12:43 PM
To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Subject: RE: [PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
Yes, It's spam the list month! :}
Armor Type Price Mater Labor Hours Days Years Cost/Month
Quilted Armor 1 6 2.1 3.9 12 2 0 100
Leather Armor 1 9 3.15 5.85 18 2 0 100
Ringmail 4 50 2.5 47.5 72 8 0 200
Banded Ring 3 100 15 85 128 13 0 200
Scale Mail 3 200 30 170 255 26 0 200
Brigandine 3 300 45 255 383 39 0 200
Chainmail 4 1500 75 1425 1425 143 0.5 300
Plate Mail 4 4500 225 4275 4275 428 1.25 300
Plate Armor 4 13500 675 12825 12825 1283 3.5 300
Elven Scale 2 275 68.75 206.2 310 31 0 200
Dwarven Chain 4 2000 100 1900 1900 190 0.5 300
Dwarven Plate 4 6000 300 5700 5700 570 1.5 300
(type 1 is leather/cloth, type 2 is leather/wood, type 3 is leather/metal or wood/metal, type 4 is all metal). Prices off my extended equip list (posted on wout's site, but recently updated with prices from the V2 proto-rules for book 1 on Wout's site).
Cost/month tweaked by the Armorer skill needed (100CC is primarily leatherworkers, 200 is leather and some metal/wood/bone, 300 are the best armorers, able to work full metal.
DO these times seem usable to everyone? Using these numbers, if characters walk into town and need new armor, odds are they will be walking out with Leather or quilted if they need to be on the road again.
_______________
Burton Choinski | Principal Software Engineer | ENOVIA MatrixOne
210 Littleton Road | Westford, MA 01886
Office: 978 589 4089 | Fax: 978 589 5903 | Cell: 508 843 7183
burton.choinski at matrixone.com
The information in this email and subsequent attachments may contain legally privileged, proprietary and confidential information that is intended for a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-mail information is prohibited. When addressed to MatrixOne clients or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or by return e-mail, and delete the e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl [mailto:pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Choinski, Burton
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:04 AM
To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Subject: RE: [PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
The following notes are taken from the basic Harn rules. I'd rather grab info from the web from an actual armormaking source, but I still have not found one with the info I want. These numbers seem at least somewhat "realistic".
Harn armor by type has costs/prices/times figured by the percentage of body covered. I am subtracting the 10% for head coverage, so all values based on 90%. Costs are in harnic pennies for reference only)
Cloth: Cost 36p, Time 90h, Price 90p (Labor: .6p/hour, Mat 40%)
Leather: Cost 63p, Time 180h, Price 180p (Labor: .65p/hour, Mat 35%)
Ring: Cost 99p, Time 810h, Price 630p (Labor: ~.65p/hour, Mat 15.7%)
Scale: Cost 144p, Time 1170h, Price 900p (Labor: ~.65p/hour, Mat 16%)
Mail: Cost 72p, Time 1800h, Price 1350p (Labor: .71p/hour, Mat 5.3%)
Plate; Cost 135p, Time 2700h, Price 2250p (Labor: .78p/hour, Mat 6%)
This data is actually somewhat usable if we assume that they have done their research, and grant a fluff factor to even out and simplify numbers. Let us proceed with a little data interpretation (with number rounding to make things clean)...
Non-metal: Material cost is 35% price
Mixed: material cost is 15% price
Metal: material cost is 5% price
Given: an armorer is a specialist valued at 2G/month (200CC). Given 30 days in a month, for an average 10h per day his cost of labor is 0.666CC/hour.
Let's try a leather helmet. 4CC. Minus material cost, the remaining labor indicates that 3.9 hours are required to make up the selling price. Call it 4 hours to make a leather helm.
Does this seem reasonable? It has the advantage of being internally consistent with the economic system. I would assume that this 4h time is for your average armorer (EL40). Harn has a value enhancement table where higher EL makes better stuff overall (ie. Even on a failure, one with the highest skill still makes a tolerable item, when the EL0 guy pretty much wastes the materials). Such a system may be adapted from our entertainer table (roll 2d10, subtract Armorer/10, add armor difficulty rating -- <5 very good, 5-7 good, 8-11 fair, 12-16 poor and >16 complete crap are the result ranges). Presumably one could double your time for a negative modifier on this roll (used by low skill apprentices), while skilled armorers could work faster and get a positive modifier. I would assume that very good gets you more armor DV, fair or less will be lower. This will obviously tweak the price. Complete crap means that the armor is junk and you lose material (25% at 16, +10% per point over 16).
Continuing the experiment. Metal helm -- 20CC. Minus materials, this is 28.5 hours (call it 29 hours). 3 days for an armorer to whip you up a metal helm. This seem reasonable?
Banded Ring: 200CC (mixed) -> 255 hours (about 26 days)
Plate Mail: 4500CC (metal) -> 6418 hours (642 days, nearly 2 years).
The plate points to an obvious economic/realism imbalance. The Harnic plate takes about 1/3 this time (still a long time). Does this price jacking indicate a need to downgrade plate price? Or are we going to consider it to take that long?
Comments and continuations on this thread (suggest or work other numbers welcomed) would be good.
, perhaps one could add 25% more time for each EL10 inferior skill, and subtract 10% for each 10EL superior. Thus an EL10 apprentice could make the same leather helm
_______________
Burton Choinski | Principal Software Engineer | ENOVIA MatrixOne
210 Littleton Road | Westford, MA 01886
Office: 978 589 4089 | Fax: 978 589 5903 | Cell: 508 843 7183
burton.choinski at matrixone.com
The information in this email and subsequent attachments may contain legally privileged, proprietary and confidential information that is intended for a particular recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, retention or use of the contents of this e-mail information is prohibited. When addressed to MatrixOne clients or vendors, any information contained in this e-mail is subject to the terms and conditions in the governing contract. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone or by return e-mail, and delete the e-mail.
-----Original Message-----
From: pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl [mailto:pnp-bounces at abroere.xs4all.nl] On Behalf Of Scott Adams
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:38 PM
To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List; The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Subject: Re: [PnP] Weapon and Armor making again.
At 09:11 PM 10/1/06, Choinski, Burton wrote:
>Yes once again, with active games comes the request for rules. That, or I'll have to start savaging my other RPG's and the internet. :P
Grrr. Err. I had a big 3 paragraph reply typed up then hit the wrong key and the email client went bye bye. Grrrr. So I won't type it up again. Too lazy. But let's see if I can sum up.
* Not all blacksmith wages are equal
* Location location location is key
To further sum up the point a blacksmith shop in a sleepy town would make 10x less than one in a castle in times of war. He might only be doing mugs and house metal work. A shop in a town would do more and a shop in a city even more business. A shop in a castle would do even more. A shop in a castle during a time of war would do weapons and make the big bucks.
I had a website I found blacksmith wages on reference to Roman times. The price you give was a bit too high. But I'd take in the above into account since location is key.
Sorry I lost the first reply it was better. This is typed in haste :) But you get the jist.
As to rules I'm not sure what your asking for?
Armor Making? Armor Repair? I found 3 files on the subject. Both should be on the website the 3rd file was a email I guess from the list (usnure who made it) extracted eons ago. It had some notes on armor. Its not formatted as it was a straight email to text file. Is this what your wanting?
All files unaltered from original source and format. of website or such ...I have a full directory of just about every pnp piece of thing of importance.
I know the 3rd's format sucks but that's how it was originally :)
Guess I deleted the person who wrote it :<Looks like it goes back
to 2004 you could get the month in the header and check the archives for the thread?
--------
Armour Modifications - by Andrew Avramenko
Armour Modifications
by: Andrew Avramenko
This is one of many changes we made where the Shield skill becomes a category
skill and you increase levels in each shield type separately. Also, cost and
weight of armour is modified by a persons size factor.
Size Factor (SF) = height" + weight/2.6 (RN)
Ave. Size = 142
Cost of Armour = SF/142 * Armour Cost
Weight of Armour = SF/142 * Armour Weight
ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄ¿
³ SHIELD TYPE ³ COST ³ AVAIL ³ WT ³ AV ³ DF ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Buckler ³ Wooden ³ 6CC ³ 100% ³ 4 ³ 5 ³ +2% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Banded ³ 2SC ³ 80% ³ 6 ³ 7 ³ +2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 3GC ³ 60% ³ 8 ³ 9 ³ +2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Target/Round Shield ³ Banded ³ 4SC ³ 100% ³ 10 ³ 8 ³ - ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 6GC ³ 80% ³ 12 ³ 12 ³ - ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Heater Shield ³ Banded ³ 8SC ³ 85% ³ 15 ³ 10 ³ -2% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 8GC ³ 60% ³ 20 ³ 14 ³ -2% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Viking/Large Round ³ Banded ³ 9SC ³ 50% ³ 20 ³ 10 ³ -3% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 9GC ³ 20% ³ 24 ³ 14 ³ -3% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Kite/Tower Shield ³ Banded ³ 1GC ³ 40% ³ 22 ³ 12 ³ -4% ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Metal ³ 10GC ³ 30% ³ 26 ³ 16 ³ -4% ³ ³
ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄÅÄÄÄÄÄ´
³ Body/ Hoplite Shield ³ Metal ³ 20GC ³ 25% ³ 30 ³ 18 ³ -5% ³
ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÙ
Andrew Avramenko
Last edited 22 November 1996 by W.Broere at CT.TUDelft.nl
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Armor Repairing
The time to repair a fully damaged suit of armor is equal to 25% of the
time required to make it from scratch, as specified in book I. If the armor
is not fully damaged the time is equal to: (Damage taken)/(total DR) *
(time to repair fully damaged suit of armor).
The cost to have your armor repaired by an armorer is 1GC per day, the time
required calculated with the above formula.
Wout Broere, Mathijs Tuynman
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© 1998-2002 Visitor: Generated : Tue Mar 5
W.Broere [DragonChess] [Image] 12:06:46 2002
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Message-ID: <20040125201204.4D43B6C72 at mailhost1.tudelft.nl> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:11:54 +0100 Reply-To: Powers and Perils Fantasy Roleplaying Game Mailing List <POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL> Sender: Powers and Perils Fantasy Roleplaying Game Mailing List <POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL> From: Alex Koponen <akoponen at MOSQUITONET.COM> Subject: Re: Armor Repairing and Labor Costs To: POWERS-AND-PERILS at geo000.CITG.TUDELFT.NL
Okay, lets try this again.
http://abroere.xs4all.nl/pnp/armor_repairing.htm says
"The cost to have your armor repaired by an armorer
is 1GC per day".
That seems a bit high to me when a specialist can be
hired for 2 GC per month and a magician for 4+ GC per
month. Indeed an EL80 armorer can be hired for 80CC a
week as an instructor, see Rule 2.211.
Perhaps (EL/7)CC (or roughly1SC) a day would be more
appropriate for repair work.
The above is based on the economic factors in the rules.
If the economic factors are rewritten then the amount would change.
Note: The labor costs for constructing various types of
armor presuming an EL70 armorer being paid 1SC per day
are: AV Days Labor Pay Listed Price Armor Helmet 1 9 9SC 8CC/1SC/10SC 4CC 2 16 16SC 20SC/30SC/40SC 2SC 3 25 25SC 160SC 10SC 4 36 36SC 450SC/2500SC* -- 5 49 49SC 1500SC -- *requires Artist skill, probably takes extra time (perhaps days x 2).
Careful analysis reveals these numbers are NOT very realistic for quilted or leather armor.
Let me try again using the minimum EL required for making a particular AV of armor with pay being ELCCs per week.
AV Days Min. EL Labor Pay Listed Price Helmet 1 9 1 0.13SC 0.8SC/1SC/10SC 4CC 2 16 11 2.51SC 20SC/30SC/40SC 2SC 3 25 21 7.5SC 160SC 10SC 4 36 31 15.94SC 450SC/2500SC* -- 5 49 41 28.7SC 1500SC -- This works better. Presumably the higher AVs would also require more expensive facilities.
I think that higher ELs should reduce the time needed to make an item.
Perhaps success rolls should be required (which would effectively make higher ELs faster on average).
Any suggestions on consequences of success rolls?
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