[PnP] Economic Project, Part 1 (rev 2)
TNT
tanghet at skynet.be
Thu Apr 10 07:46:49 CEST 2014
Dear PP-fans,
I’ve designed a table for revenue (Monthly and Daily), a rule for daily
living cost of living and EL effect on revenue.
If you want i can translate the rules in english (the table labels is
another affair)
just tell me J
2.9 Income by profession
Chaque métier peut procurer un revenu mensuel, quotidien ou à l’acte. La
table suivante donne le revenu de base, exprimé en sous(SO). Certains
métiers n’ont pas de talent associé et peuvent être testé sur base d’une
formule incluant les caractéristiques indiquées ci-dessous :
Profession
M
Q
Test
Acrobate
30
A En
Acteur
50
V E
Alchimiste
270
30
I Em
Amuseur
60
E Em
Apothicaire
300
35
I I
Architecte
460
110
I I
Armateur
450
20
I V
Armurier
540
D Em
Arracheur dent
280
V I
Artiste
80
V Em
Assassin
400
D V
Astrologue
420
60
Em I
Aubergiste
300
V En
Aumônier
100
Em E
Avocat
410
60
E I
Bailli
130
V I
Banneret
170
I V
Barbier
200
10
V I
Baron
250
V Em
Bateleur
260
En F
Berger
100
En Em
Boucher
240
D En
Boulanger
280
En D
Bûcheron
180
F F
Caravanier
280
En En
Carrier
160
F D
Cartographe
420
75
I I
Chandelier
270
D D
Changeur
290
I I
Chapelier
320
D Em
Chapelain
200
I E
Charbonnier
270
F En
Charpentier
330
35
F D
Charretier
320
F En
Chasseur
210
D En
Chaudronnier
380
F D
Chaussetier
310
D D
Chevalier
100
F I
Chiffonnier
250
D En
Clerc
220
Em I
Colporteur
70
En F
Comte
300
I V
Conseiller
150
Em I
Cordelier
270
D F
Cordonnier
340
D D
Courtisan
100
Ap V
Crieur
30
E E
Cuisinier /chef coq
170
Em D
Danseur
40
A A
Dignitaire religieux
420
90
V Em
Diplomate
500
80
I V
Distillateur
250
I Em
Domestique
90
En A
Drapier
300
D D
Dresseur
360
45
Em V
Duc
400
I V
Ébéniste
350
D En
Éclaireur
300
D En
Écrivain public
20
I Em
Écuyer
320
A En
Éleveur
290
V Em
Embaumeur
240
30
V D
Enlumineur
40
I Em
Entraîneur animaux
320
V En
Épicier
150
I E
Ermite
150
En V
Esclavagiste
340
V I
Esclave
5
En V
Espion
180
I I
Étudiant
140
I Em
Fabricant trappe
310
40
D D
Fauconnier
440
Em V
Fermier
140
En F
Fondeur
360
F En
Forestier
170
En En
Forgeron
400
D F
Fou
70
V Em
Fourreur
330
D D
Gantier
300
D D
Garçon d’écurie
80
A En
Garde
150
20
F D
Gardien de terre
200
En F
Gens d’arme
160
F D
Geôlier
140
En V
Graveur
30
I D
Guérisseur
300
Em V
Harpiste
240
150
Em En
Héraut
380
80
I Em
Herboriste/mi/eq
300
50
I I
Homme d’arme
170
F V
Ingénieur
450
80
Em E
Inquisiteur
300
Em I
Intendant
410
65
I I
Joaillier
330
D V
Jongleur
35
D A
Joueur
50
I V
Juge
440
I I
Laboureur
120
F En
Laitier
130
En En
Lexicographe
50
D I
Linguiste
380
I Em
Luthier
210
55
D En
Maçon
480
D En
Maître chenil
300
Em V
Maître d’arme
450
D A
Maître d'équipage
390
V En
Maraîcher
210
En F
Maraud
50
D I
Marchand
90
I V
Marché
5
E I
Marin
240
En F
Marin eau douce
250
En A
Marin mer
280
En F
Mathématicien
330
I I
Médecin
440
50
I Em
Mendiant
40
Ap E
Ménestrel
35
E Em
Menuisier
350
D En
Mercenaire
150
10
F V
Messager
180
20
En A
Meunier
420
F En
Mineur
420
En F
Musicien
180
Em I
Notaire
420
60
I I
Officier
350
V Ap
Orateur
40
E E
Ouvrier
120
F F
Page
170
A En
Parfumeur
330
Em Em
Paysan
120
F En
Pêcheur
240
V D
Petit seigneur
140
V F
Pilote
480
I I
Pisteur
200
Em I
Plaideur
360
25
E I
Poète
290
Em Em
Porcher
280
F En
Potier
300
D Em
Prêcheur
90
E V
Prêtre
140
Em V
Prévôt
430
V Em
Professeur
340
I E
Prostituée
180
85
Ap Ap
Ramoneur
140
En F
Rebouteux
250
V D
Religieux
120
Em V
Rentier
300
I V
Roi
900
I Ap
Saisonnier
10
En D
Salier
240
D En
Sapeur
200
F En
Savant
360
25
I I
Scientifique
300
I Em
Scribe
330
15
Em D
Seigneur
200
V I
Sellier
160
A D
Sénéchal
490
F A
Sergent
200
F En
Serrurier
300
D D
Serviteur
120
10
En I
Soigneur d’animaux
310
Em I
Sorcier
800
I V
Spécial
100
F I
Tailleur
280
D I
Tanneur
300
A D
Tapissier
340
D I
Tavernier
270
I Em
Teinturier
280
A D
Tentier
360
D F
Tisserand
330
D I
Tonnelier
300
F D
Troubadour
50
E Ap
Tuilier
290
D En
Tuteur
280
V E
Usurier
40
I V
Vanneur
290
D D
Vendangeur
180
En En
Verrier
330
I D
Vigneron
250
Em I
Voleur
300
D A
Profession = nom du métier.
M = revenu mensuel en sous (SO).
Q = revenu quotidien ou à la pièce/à l’acte en sous(SO).
Test = les caractéristiques principales et secondaires pour la maîtrise
d’une profession
Vous pouvez calculez le revenu mensuel sur base du revenu quotidien : M = 15
x Q sous(SO) et le revenu quotidien sur base du mensuel : Q = M/20 sous(SO).
Pour déterminer un revenu mensuel basé sur un talent quelconque, utilisez la
formule suivante : M = CPA(du talent) x 4 sous(SO).
Expertise dans le talent
Le revenu est modifié par le NE dans le talent (équivaut à [Carac principale
x2 + Carac. Secondaire)/2) :
NE
Revenu
<21
-50%
21-40
-25%
41-60
0
>60
+25%
N’oubliez pas de tester les talents marchands pour évaluer le gain ou la
perte supplémentaire.
-----Message d'origine-----
De : pnp [mailto:pnp-bounces at list.powersandperils.org] De la part de Scott
Adams
Envoyé : jeudi 10 avril 2014 05:57
À : The Powers and Perils Mailing List
Objet : Re: [PnP] Economic Project, Part 1 (rev 2)
Each time I try to post I get busy.
I've saved the posts and when get brain power and time will reply. I started
a bit tonight so its being worked on.
At 09:54 PM 3/30/2014, you wrote:
>Note: After playing with the numbers, in order to keep the
>farmer/urban ratio proper, I decided the "per season" was
>per-year. re-formulated the assumptions and gave my reasonings. :)
>Also reformatted.
>
>
>Greetings everyone! It's been a long while since I put anything
>major up to the list, and given the low traffic I figured I may as
>well do so with a project I have been working on for what seems like
>several years (off and on, including endless tweaks and
>redos). This is my "Economic Unification" project.
>
>For all the years my group and I have been playing P&P, one of the
>largest irks we had was with the equipment list, mostly with some of
>the wacky prices, but also because of them it made fitting in new
>equipment somewhat difficult. 5 years ago, when we restarted our
>"Legends" campaign with their characters of 25 years ago, one of
>their goals was to eventually carve out a kingdom for themselves
>(which they have, in the "unclaimed" hills and mountains of the
>western elder mountains, close to Treaus.
>
>Well, once you get such a kingdom, they needed to know what they
>were bringing in with regards to taxes. I could have gone with the
>culture book's GNI calculation and been done with it, but being the
>type who likes to crunch numbers and lay out a consistent basis for
>things, I went back to our old nemesis, the equipment list and how
>things are priced. To do this I would need to work out costs from
>the ground up, thus the birth of this project.
>
>I am presenting these series of posts as both a presentation of my
>ideas to the list as well as draw upon the collective experiences of
>GM's and players alike to poke holes at my assumptions, shore up
>faulty logic, or add missing information that would make it more
>complete. I hope the eventual "laws" that are generated can then be
>used by all to create a more comprehensive and logically consistent
>set of prices for any gear or services we ever need.
>
>Now, I am not an economist (though some of you out there may be), so
>I'm looking at these rules as a step-by-step system to lay out a
>logical reasoning for the values of various goods and services. The
>goal is not to make "Sim-Donara", and may of the assumptions are
>made to reduce the laws to a bare minimum with a "perfect world"
>mindset, with the assumption that once we have a solid foundation,
>simple modifiers can then be worked up to reflect the variances one
>might encounter in the actual game world.
>
>In summation, before I begin, I plan to present my thesis for open
>use as I plan to use it in my game. Comments pointing out missing
>parts or faulty logic are certainly welcome, and I will try to reply
>to all with my reasons why I don't think they work or with updated
>info as needed once integrated. I have a large excel spreadsheet
>that is backing all these calculations, and I'll happily email it to
>anyone who wishes a copy at any point (I'll have to keep it
>revisioned, as it may get updated a lot depending on
>responses). Simply contact me at <mailto:bchoinskI at verizon.net>
bchoinskI at verizon.net and ask for
>the economic sheet. And if you find bad formulas, let me know!
>
>With luck, at the end of this a comprehensive an internally
>consistent equipment and services list can be created.
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
>The following base assumptions are used as the core of the system:
> * A P&P year is 360 days; a P&P week is 6 days, for 5 weeks per month
> * A P&P ton is 2000 pounds
> * Normal definitions of an acre (43,560 square feet) and mile (5,280
feet)
> apply; a square mile contain 640 acres
> * Yields and production rates based on real-world data for Roman era
thru
> Middle-Ages, where I could find it; Some info drawn from GURPS Low
Tech
> sources since I believe the authors have tried to do the same
research
> I am doing and probably had paid access to sources I can't google up
> (Assuming GURPS TL1 or TL2 for the P&P world, with TL3 in some
cultures
> for specific technologies)
> * All occupations are averaged out to the productivity of a single man;
> yes, many occupations are performed by teams of men, but we average
it
> out to find a single man value. This allows us to easily calculate
the
> production of any number of people.
> - For simplicity, children (who normally contribute to a family's
> income) produce at HALF rate, but likewise require HALF the
needs.
> * We assume an average food need for human adults of 2.5 food points
> * Values of products or services are largely based on the cost of
labor,
> plus any source materials for refining or crafting occupations
> * When sources refer to a "family", we assume two adults at full
> production
> one youth at half production and two children at quarter production
and
> perhaps a baby at no production. Thus, a family of 5-6 has
> the production
> (and income needs) of 3 adults.
>
>
>All occupations have a set standard of living, defined as a
>specified number of bits per day. The base values by station at
>based on the P&P starting wealth table and some ideas from other games:
> * Station 1 -- Labor (1bb), Skilled Labor (2bb)
> * Station 2 -- Crafter (5bb), Master Crafter (10bb), Tradesman (5bb),
> Uncommon Tradesman (10bb), Pack Trader (5bb),
> Minor Merchant (10bb)
> * Station 3 -- Artisan (20bb), Master Artisan (50bb), Merchant (20bb),
> Master Merchant (50bb)
> * Station 4 -- Specialist (100b), Rare Specialist (200b)
>
>
>
>The foundation of most civilized lands is agriculture. Farmers at
>Station 1 make up the majority of the population, and the overall
>cost of food is based on what their income is worth.
>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>FARMER (1bb/day)
>GURPS Low Tech Companion #3 (henceforth GLTC3) states that barley
>produces 705# per acre per growing season, with wheat producing 355#
>and legumes 280#. Agriculture at the level of technology produces
>yields 4:1 (4 pounds of grain for every pound sewn). I am unable to
>nail down a distinct maximum amount of land that a farming family
>can manage per year, but we want to match a more "ancient" rate of
>support needing plenty of farmers to support an urban
>population. Analysis of the P&P cultures shows that the weighted
>average margin is 20% (i.e. 1 farmer can support 1.2
>people). Iteration of various values in excel indicates that the
>average farmland that a family can manage is 14 acres. At the P&P
>level of technology, the two-field system is most likely used, so
>half of this land is left fallow fallow each year to prevent soil
exhaustion.
>
>With the above numbers, a farm produces 4,935# of barley, 2,485# of
>wheat or 1,960# of legumes each year, of which 1 part in 4 must be
>retained for next years crops. This results in usable returns of
>3,702# of barley (1,234#/adult), 1,864# of wheat (622#/adult) and
>1,470# of legumes (490#/adult). Wheat produces about 1.7x the weight
>of the grain in straw (usable for fodder), or 4,225#
>(1,409#/adult). To keep things simple, barley produces less usable
>fodder, keeping it's yield at the same level as wheat.
>
>A farmer works 300 days a year on his own farm, spending an
>additional 30 days (tithe) working the lands of his liege lord. The
>remaining 30 days in the year account for sickness, holy days or bad
>weather, but implies that a farmer could work those days, getting
>+10% income. The 300 days working his own farm must meet his income
>needs (1bb/day), so we can determine the value of the crops. It is
>assumed that grains make up 75% of the income, with straw/fodder
>making up the other 25%. Legumes make up 100% of the income when grown.
> Barley/Oats -> 0.1824bb/# (9b for a 50# bushel)
> Wheat -> 0.3618bb/# (18b for a 50# bushel)
> Legumes -> 0.6123bb/# (30b for a 50# bushel)
> Fodder -> 0.0533bb/# (11b for a 200# bale)
>
>GLTC3 states that an active adult requires 750# of grain per year to
>survive. Wheat provides more protein than barley and is used for
>bread, with legumes making up the remainder of the needed protein
>(meat was relatively rare). Working the numbers such that food costs
>2/3 the income, the diet is 70% barley, 20% wheat and 10% legumes,
>the yearly food cost is 196bb/year. Obviously, lower quality food
>can be bought for less if he needs money for other things.
>
>In terms of population support, using the same percentages to
>determine the average food cost, a single adult farmer produces
>enough to feed 1.383 adults. While higher than the P&P weighted
>margin, it is enough to cover some high ratio cultures without the
>need for serious food imports (i.e. A'Korchu at a 33% margin or
>Dirlla at a 37% margin).
>
>Given the above, the average adult requires 2.5FP per day, or 900FP
>per year. A grain/legumes diet provides 1.2FP per pound. At least
>now a Station person can afford his food (Book 1 had grain at 2bb per
pound!)
>
>The value of cropland works out to the income produced by the people
>working it for you. At 300b income over 14 acres, this comes to
>21.43bb/acre for farmland (active+fallow). Book 1 states that
>farmland is worth 1SC per acre when purchased, so if we go with this
>value as one of our "data anchors" this implies that land sells for
>4.7x it's yearly production income. This will come in handy when we
>eventually determine the cost of other land.
>
>The cost of wintering a horse is based on 100 days where grazing is
>not possible. For a 1000lb horse, this is 20# of straw fodder per
>day, or 1SC per year. Working horses (horses on the battlefield or
>constantly working) cannot graze and will need oats as a supplement
>(0.5lb oats per 100lb weight) in addition to purchased straw, so
>owning a horse will cost an adventurer 12bb per week while traveling
>(6CC per month).
>
>
>BREWER (5bb/year)
>On old resource I've mined for info is "Economy Quest", a set of
>economic rules made for Runequest (available if desired, contact me
>by email). From their rules:
>Brewing
> Brewers are crafters living in the 1440 p. income bracket.
> A small brewery
> produces 2900 liters of ale per year. This ale sells, in
> bulk, for 5 clacs
> per liter. A brewery may grow its own hops, requiring a
> small farm to do
> so, or buy them, which costs 220 pennies per year.
>
>The 1440p income is the same as our 5bb/year. 2900 liters is roughly
>766 gallons. Scaled down from a family, this averages to 256
>gallons per adult. From personal experience and online sources, a
>good rule of thumb is 10# of malted grain for 5 gallons of water, or
>2# per gallon. While hops were not introduced in the real world
>until the middle ages, other herbs or spices were used as
>preservatives. We assume the brewing family grows whatever was used
>on their own lands and gathers their firewood for boiling the brew.
>
>(NOTE: Is this too little beer? I have brewed in the past, in 5
>gallon batches and it took me, with modern gear a few hours to boil
>and cool the wort, followed by a week or so of fermentation before
>bottling. Were I to do this every night (had I the equipment) for
>300 days I could do about 1,500 gallons a year If I also had to
>spend the day gathering firewood, picking hops, checking on the
>grain being malted for the next batch, etc. And that's with 20th
>century appliances and modern plumbing. If I had to do it with
>firewood and getting water from the local well, I could easily see
>my rate cut in half.)
>
>At 5bb per day, the 300 day rate is 1500bb. Instead of working a
>liege-lord's lands, the brewer pays an additional 10% of their
>income in beer to the lord, so he must actually produce 1650bb of
>value in those 300 days (which allows for +20% income if he works
>extra days). Given the cost of 500lb of barley, plus his income
>needs and tithed value we can determine the value of his beer or ale.
> Beer -> 6.965bb/gallon
>
>The brewer would likely sell his beer in 10 gallon lots (you supply
>the barrel; the actual cost of a barrel lies in a future
>installment), cleaned up for "processing and handling".
> Beer -> 7CC per 10 gallon keg
>
>
>TAVERN-KEEPER (5bb/year)
>With the cost of beer from his supplier at 7bb/gallon, and a noted
>Book 1 cost of 2bb per quart (8bb/gallon), a Tavern-Keeper's markup
>is obviously 1bb per gallon (15%), meaning he must sell 1,650
>gallons a year (about 5.5 gallons per day, over 300 days of
>operation). Using this same ratio, a tavern that sold prepared food
>would use the same margin
> Beer or Ale -> 2bb/quart, 1bb/pint
> Watered Ale -> 1bb/quart
> Tavern Meal -> 1/4bb per food point (per day) at Station 1
>
>
>
>
>Web sources:
>------------
> <http://www.hyw.com/books/history/agricult.htm>
http://www.hyw.com/books/history/agricult.htm
> <http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/horse/horse.html>
http://www.aces.uiuc.edu/vista/html_pubs/horse/horse.html
> <http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/m_econ.htm>
http://www.newsfrombree.co.uk/m_econ.htm
>
<http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/everything-starts-with-grain>
http://mu.ranter.net/design-theory/food-basis/everything-starts-with-grain
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>pnp mailing list
> <mailto:pnp at list.powersandperils.org> pnp at list.powersandperils.org
> <http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp>
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