[PnP] Weapons skills: pnp Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2

Bessie Hadley eleabess at sbcglobal.net
Thu Nov 3 13:48:15 CET 2016


Concerning knives, the two skills are quite different - hand melee fighting is one skill; throwing knives is a ranged skill. Knowing how to handle a knife in a fight is one skill. getting a thrown knife to stick into its target versus hitting either handle-first or bouncing/dropping off the target is another skill. 

Even the types of blades are different, although one can learn to throw a fighting knife. An assassin's blade is slender & quick to draw & throw & most likely sharp on both edges.

So that's two skills to master. (Darn it, anyway - lol)

But you're right, it can be confusing to a newbie - but just as likely it's wishful thinking & the newbie knows it.

With a grin -


Bess L. Hadley 

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 11/2/16, pnp-request at list.powersandperils.org <pnp-request at list.powersandperils.org> wrote:

 Subject: pnp Digest, Vol 133, Issue 2
 To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2016, 9:52 PM
 
 Send pnp mailing list submissions to
     pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 
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 When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
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 than "Re: Contents of pnp digest..."
 
 
 Today's Topics:
 
    1. WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
    2. Re: WEapon Courses ( Thomas O. Magann
 Jr.)
    3. Re: WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
    4. Re: WEapon Courses (Wout Broere)
    5. Re: WEapon Courses (Scott Adams)
 
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
 Message: 1
 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 15:09:52 -0400
 From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
 To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 Message-ID: <mailman.175.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
 
 
    It is fascinating to see the game from a
 new player today.
    I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One who
 works with me
    is brand new to game very new.  So i
 had to write up
    primers and such for him.  The second
 has played but
    has gotten confused on skills.  I
 don't blame him now
    that I look at it.  SKills are so
 second nature to me
    after 30 years i even forgot this stuff.
 
    Weapon Courses
 
      The game lists these weapon
 courses..
 
 
 Weapon Skills
       Weapon skill is initially gained in a
 specific Weapon Type. The
       starting EL, unless a Special event
 specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
       The basic courses that can be learned
 are listed in the table.
 
 Weapon Courses           
    Course Weapons
 Axe               
       Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and Battle
 Axe
 Bow               
       Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
 Crossbow             
    Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
 Dagger             
      Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
 Heavy Lance             
 Heavy Lance
 Heavy Sword             
 Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
 Light Lance             
 Lance**
 Mace               
      Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer, Sap
 Miscellaneous Throwing   Rocks, Bottles,
 Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
 Polearms             
    Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
 Repeating Crossbow       Repeating
 Crossbow
 Scimitar             
    Scimitar, Tulwar
 Spear               
     Spear, Javelin, Pike
 Sling               
     Sling, Handle Sling
 Sword               
     Sword, Short Sword***
 Throwing Axe         
    Throwing Axe
 War Staff             
   War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
 Whip               
      Whips of varying lengths
 
 
          Now his confusion was
 on Dagger.  Why there are Fight
          and Thow at 2
 costs.  So to the new player I can
          see his issue.
 
          First to him he was
 looking for Course Cost to Learns.
          Had to explain that's
 the basic Skill Cost.
 
          Second had to explain
 that more than likely Richard
          goofed and placed
 Dagger and Spear wrong.
 
      So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't as
 the courses imply give you
      throw for free and vice
 versa.  So there is confusion there.
 
      Maybe we should have a FAQ for this
 stuff.  In today's
      world we should have Youtube videos
 :)  But the most confused
      part to me for new folks is Initial
 Increases.  I believe
      this is on Wout's site.  But
 explaining that to a new person
      is not as easy.
 
    So you guys think Richard goofed or did he
 intend to say buying
    one dagger gives you second? :)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 ------------------------------
 
 Message: 2
 Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 14:57:38 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
 From: " Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tmagann at earthlink.net>
 To: The Powers and Perils Mailing List <pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 Message-ID:
     <12973619.18856.1478123858125 at mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
 
 
 Throwing a dagger and fighting with a dagger are two
 different skills. Hence two prices. Throwing Axe is listed
 oddly compared to daggers and spears, but points this out
 for throwing axes, so I assume it carries over to throwing
 daggers, which are listed later. And I suspect that throwing
 Axe was listed as it was on purpose.
 
 A throwing dagger has different stats than a fighting
 dagger. Hence, even when using it to fight, it's a separate
 fighting dagger weapon, much as club and mace are different
 maces. And an Elven versions of both are swords, at least
 for fighting purposes. I assume throwing an Elven dagger is
 just a variant of thrown dagger. One requiring it's own
 learning path.
 
 Spears have two prices as well (fight style and throwing
 style), so I don't think he got them confused. Light Lance
 is specifically noted as a special case in which one skill
 covers both. It seems to be the only such skill that covers
 both.
 
 Basically, the Combat skill list breaks down style costs by
 category, while the Weapon Skills list just breaks down the
 types of weapons in each category, and doesn't need to
 double list such things. 
 
 The fact that Axe and Throwing Axe are listed twice while
 daggers and spears are not simply means that ONLY throwing
 axes may be thrown, while all daggers and spears may be. No
 matter what the dagger is called or how it is designed. 
 
 Of course, I use the printed books, v1. If v2 is different,
 it may be less mistake and more that it was still a work in
 progress when he died, and incomplete or still in the draft
 stages.
 
 But that's me. I don't see a mistake in V1. quite the
 opposite, I noticed Throwing Axe as the odd man out, and
 assume it meant something. I may well be wrong. I could be
 reading too much into it, but it seems to make sense to me.
 
 
 -----Original Message-----
 >From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
 >Sent: Nov 2, 2016 12:09 PM
 >To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 >Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 >
 >
 >   It is fascinating to see the game from
 a new player today.
 >   I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One
 who works with me
 >   is brand new to game very new. 
 So i had to write up
 >   primers and such for him.  The
 second has played but
 >   has gotten confused on skills.  I
 don't blame him now
 >   that I look at it.  SKills are so
 second nature to me
 >   after 30 years i even forgot this
 stuff.
 >
 >   Weapon Courses
 >
 >     The game lists these weapon
 courses..
 >
 >
 >Weapon Skills
 >      Weapon skill is initially gained in
 a specific Weapon Type. The
 >      starting EL, unless a Special event
 specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
 >      The basic courses that can be
 learned are listed in the table.
 >
 >Weapon Courses           
    Course Weapons
 >Axe             
         Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
 Battle Axe
 >Bow             
         Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
 >Crossbow             
    Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
 >Dagger             
      Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
 >Heavy Lance           
   Heavy Lance
 >Heavy Sword           
   Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
 >Light Lance           
   Lance**
 >Mace             
        Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer,
 Sap
 >Miscellaneous Throwing   Rocks, Bottles,
 Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
 >Polearms             
    Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
 >Repeating Crossbow   
    Repeating Crossbow
 >Scimitar             
    Scimitar, Tulwar
 >Spear             
       Spear, Javelin, Pike
 >Sling             
       Sling, Handle Sling
 >Sword             
       Sword, Short Sword***
 >Throwing Axe         
    Throwing Axe
 >War Staff           
     War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
 >Whip             
        Whips of varying lengths
 >
 >
 >         Now his confusion
 was on Dagger.  Why there are Fight
 >         and Thow at 2
 costs.  So to the new player I can
 >         see his issue.
 >
 >         First to him he
 was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
 >         Had to explain
 that's the basic Skill Cost.
 >
 >         Second had to
 explain that more than likely Richard
 >         goofed and placed
 Dagger and Spear wrong.
 >
 >     So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't
 as the courses imply give you
 >     throw for free and vice
 versa.  So there is confusion there.
 >
 >     Maybe we should have a FAQ for
 this stuff.  In today's
 >     world we should have Youtube
 videos :)  But the most confused
 >     part to me for new folks is
 Initial Increases.  I believe
 >     this is on Wout's site. 
 But explaining that to a new person
 >     is not as easy.
 >
 >   So you guys think Richard goofed or
 did he intend to say buying
 >   one dagger gives you second? :)
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >_______________________________________________
 >pnp mailing list
 >pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 >http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
 
 
 
 ------------------------------
 
 Message: 3
 Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 21:14:16 -0400
 From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
 To: " Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tmagann at earthlink.net>,
 The Powers and
     Perils Mailing List <pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 Message-ID: <mailman.176.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
 
 
 This is obvious to me and you.  My point it is not to
 new folks.  The 
 phrasing.
 I use 2 dagger skills.
 But the way the basic rules imply you should get both.
 Get Mace you get all those under it.  Easy.
 Then you look at Dagger great you get both.
 But then you look at skill table and scratch head.  Why
 is it 2 
 different costs to buy?
 But I thought Dagger gives us both?
 See?  That confusion is a bit misleading.  Had
 this one with my new player.
 Now that I look at it i cna see why.
 Maybe wout should edit it in his great new pd that
 Dagger gives you free OEN of the two.
 Spear give syou one of the two.
 All others you get at el0 as listed.
 
 That's all I'm saying.
 A FAQ on this might be useful.
 I hadn't even looked at the rules this in depth in
 years.  When he 
 emailed me asking about Courses i was like what????
 The term I had to lok up.
 Sure enough its there.  Been so long.
 
 First the rules imply that there is this Weapon Course buy
 cost? So 
 his first question is where was the cost forX skill.
 Oh?  So its on skill chart But that's one skill. 
 So that is also a 
 bit unclear.
 
 So after figuring out no Course buy in but a Skill buy in he
 then 
 asked why Dagger gives 2 when its 2 different buy ins.
 
 To us this is second nature.
 But to new folks it is harder.
 
 In 30 years I can't say how many times I've had to explain
 the 
 Initial increases section. ;)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 At 05:57 PM 11/2/2016, you wrote:
 
 >Throwing a dagger and fighting with a dagger are two
 different 
 >skills. Hence two prices. Throwing Axe is listed oddly
 compared to 
 >daggers and spears, but points this out for throwing
 axes, so I 
 >assume it carries over to throwing daggers, which are
 listed later. 
 >And I suspect that throwing Axe was listed as it was on
 purpose.
 >
 >A throwing dagger has different stats than a fighting
 dagger. Hence, 
 >even when using it to fight, it's a separate fighting
 dagger weapon, 
 >much as club and mace are different maces. And an Elven
 versions of 
 >both are swords, at least for fighting purposes. I
 assume throwing 
 >an Elven dagger is just a variant of thrown dagger. One
 requiring 
 >it's own learning path.
 >
 >Spears have two prices as well (fight style and throwing
 style), so 
 >I don't think he got them confused. Light Lance is
 specifically 
 >noted as a special case in which one skill covers both.
 It seems to 
 >be the only such skill that covers both.
 >
 >Basically, the Combat skill list breaks down style costs
 by 
 >category, while the Weapon Skills list just breaks down
 the types of 
 >weapons in each category, and doesn't need to double
 list such things.
 >
 >The fact that Axe and Throwing Axe are listed twice
 while daggers 
 >and spears are not simply means that ONLY throwing axes
 may be 
 >thrown, while all daggers and spears may be. No matter
 what the 
 >dagger is called or how it is designed.
 >
 >Of course, I use the printed books, v1. If v2 is
 different, it may 
 >be less mistake and more that it was still a work in
 progress when 
 >he died, and incomplete or still in the draft stages.
 >
 >But that's me. I don't see a mistake in V1. quite the
 opposite, I 
 >noticed Throwing Axe as the odd man out, and assume it
 meant 
 >something. I may well be wrong. I could be reading too
 much into it, 
 >but it seems to make sense to me.
 >
 >-----Original Message-----
 > >From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
 > >Sent: Nov 2, 2016 12:09 PM
 > >To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 > >Subject: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 > >
 > >
 > >   It is fascinating to see the game
 from a new player today.
 > >   I have 2 new players (3rd on
 way). One who works with me
 > >   is brand new to game very
 new.  So i had to write up
 > >   primers and such for him. 
 The second has played but
 > >   has gotten confused on
 skills.  I don't blame him now
 > >   that I look at it.  SKills
 are so second nature to me
 > >   after 30 years i even forgot this
 stuff.
 > >
 > >   Weapon Courses
 > >
 > >     The game lists these
 weapon courses..
 > >
 > >
 > >Weapon Skills
 > >      Weapon skill is initially
 gained in a specific Weapon Type. The
 > >      starting EL, unless a Special
 event specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
 > >      The basic courses that can be
 learned are listed in the table.
 > >
 > >Weapon Courses         
      Course Weapons
 > >Axe             
         Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
 Battle Axe
 > >Bow             
         Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
 > >Crossbow           
      Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
 > >Dagger           
        Throwing Dagger, Fighting
 Dagger
 > >Heavy Lance         
     Heavy Lance
 > >Heavy Sword         
     Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
 > >Light Lance         
     Lance**
 > >Mace           
          Club, Mace, Flail,
 Hammer, Sap
 > >Miscellaneous Throwing   Rocks,
 Bottles, Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
 > >Polearms           
      Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
 > >Repeating Crossbow   
    Repeating Crossbow
 > >Scimitar           
      Scimitar, Tulwar
 > >Spear           
         Spear, Javelin, Pike
 > >Sling           
         Sling, Handle Sling
 > >Sword           
         Sword, Short Sword***
 > >Throwing Axe         
    Throwing Axe
 > >War Staff           
     War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
 > >Whip           
          Whips of varying
 lengths
 > >
 > >
 > >         Now his
 confusion was on Dagger.  Why there are Fight
 > >         and Thow at
 2 costs.  So to the new player I can
 > >         see his
 issue.
 > >
 > >         First to him
 he was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
 > >         Had to
 explain that's the basic Skill Cost.
 > >
 > >         Second had
 to explain that more than likely Richard
 > >         goofed and
 placed Dagger and Spear wrong.
 > >
 > >     So Buying Dagger -Fight
 doesn't as the courses imply give you
 > >     throw for free and vice
 versa.  So there is confusion there.
 > >
 > >     Maybe we should have a FAQ
 for this stuff.  In today's
 > >     world we should have
 Youtube videos :)  But the most confused
 > >     part to me for new folks
 is Initial Increases.  I believe
 > >     this is on Wout's
 site.  But explaining that to a new person
 > >     is not as easy.
 > >
 > >   So you guys think Richard goofed
 or did he intend to say buying
 > >   one dagger gives you second? :)
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > >_______________________________________________
 > >pnp mailing list
 > >pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 > >http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
 >
 >_______________________________________________
 >pnp mailing list
 >pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 >http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
 
 
 
 
 ------------------------------
 
 Message: 4
 Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 05:38:29 +0100
 From: Wout Broere <broere at powersandperils.org>
 To: pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 Message-ID: <b159ad7e-f1d6-f989-ac86-af7aa8bb5b6d at powersandperils.org>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
 
 My take has always been that
 
 1) the general rule holds that you first learn a weapon
 course (e.g. 
 heavy swords) and gain ALL weapons in that class at EL0.
 This costs the 
 Cost to Learn. (25 expertise in this case.)
 2) After that each weapon is advanced individually, see per
 EL 
 increase/cost NEL (NEL x 7)
 
 Dagger, Spear and Throwing Axe are special in that they
 differentiate 
 between fighting and throwing.
 
 3) Learn Dagger - Fight and you gain the skill to fight with
 all dagger 
 types (Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0. This only
 covers 
 fighting, not throwing
 4) Learn Dagger - Throw and gain the skill to throw all
 dagger types 
 (again Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0. Increase
 skill to 
 'Throw a Fighting Dagger' and skill to 'Throw a Throwing
 Dagger' 
 separately after that.
 
 
 Someone may want to learn to throw fighting daggers, and the
 rules allow 
 that. They are just not as good thrown as throwing daggers
 are. And 
 throwing daggers are not as good to fight with.
 
 Wout
 
 On 02-11-16 20:09, Scott Adams wrote:
 >
 >   It is fascinating to see the game from
 a new player today.
 >   I have 2 new players (3rd on way). One
 who works with me
 >   is brand new to game very new. 
 So i had to write up
 >   primers and such for him.  The
 second has played but
 >   has gotten confused on skills.  I
 don't blame him now
 >   that I look at it.  SKills are so
 second nature to me
 >   after 30 years i even forgot this
 stuff.
 >
 >   Weapon Courses
 >
 >     The game lists these weapon
 courses..
 >
 >
 > Weapon Skills
 >      Weapon skill is initially gained in
 a specific Weapon Type. The
 >      starting EL, unless a Special event
 specifies otherwise, is ZERO.
 >      The basic courses that can be
 learned are listed in the table.
 >
 > Weapon Courses           
    Course Weapons
 > Axe             
         Throwing Axe*, Hand Axe, Axe and
 Battle Axe
 > Bow             
         Bow, Composite Bow, Longbow
 > Crossbow           
      Light and Heavy Crossbow, Arbalest
 > Dagger             
      Throwing Dagger, Fighting Dagger
 > Heavy Lance           
   Heavy Lance
 > Heavy Sword           
   Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Great Sword
 > Light Lance           
   Lance**
 > Mace             
        Club, Mace, Flail, Hammer,
 Sap
 > Miscellaneous Throwing   Rocks, Bottles,
 Chairs, Shuriken, etc.
 > Polearms           
      Halberd, Poleaxe, Glaive
 > Repeating Crossbow   
    Repeating Crossbow
 > Scimitar           
      Scimitar, Tulwar
 > Spear             
       Spear, Javelin, Pike
 > Sling             
       Sling, Handle Sling
 > Sword             
       Sword, Short Sword***
 > Throwing Axe         
    Throwing Axe
 > War Staff           
     War Staff, any pole of usable dimensions
 > Whip             
        Whips of varying lengths
 >
 >
 >         Now his confusion
 was on Dagger.  Why there are Fight
 >         and Thow at 2
 costs.  So to the new player I can
 >         see his issue.
 >
 >         First to him he
 was looking for Course Cost to Learns.
 >         Had to explain
 that's the basic Skill Cost.
 >
 >         Second had to
 explain that more than likely Richard
 >         goofed and placed
 Dagger and Spear wrong.
 >
 >     So Buying Dagger -Fight doesn't
 as the courses imply give you
 >     throw for free and vice
 versa.  So there is confusion there.
 >
 >     Maybe we should have a FAQ for
 this stuff.  In today's
 >     world we should have Youtube
 videos :)  But the most confused
 >     part to me for new folks is
 Initial Increases.  I believe
 >     this is on Wout's site. 
 But explaining that to a new person
 >     is not as easy.
 >
 >   So you guys think Richard goofed or
 did he intend to say buying
 >   one dagger gives you second? :)
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > pnp mailing list
 > pnp at list.powersandperils.org
 > http://www.powersandperils.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pnp
 >
 
 
 
 ------------------------------
 
 Message: 5
 Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 00:50:50 -0400
 From: Scott Adams <longshotgm at comcast.net>
 To: broere at powersandperils.org,
 The Powers and Perils Mailing List
     <pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Subject: Re: [PnP] WEapon Courses
 Message-ID: <mailman.177.1478148731.2766.pnp at list.powersandperils.org>
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
 
 At 12:38 AM 11/3/2016, you wrote:
 >My take has always been that
 >
 >1) the general rule holds that you first learn a weapon
 course (e.g. 
 >heavy swords) and gain ALL weapons in that class at EL0.
 This costs 
 >the Cost to Learn. (25 expertise in this case.)
 
 Yep.
 
 
 >2) After that each weapon is advanced individually, see
 per EL 
 >increase/cost NEL (NEL x 7)
 
 
 Ack.
 
 
 
 >Dagger, Spear and Throwing Axe are special in that they
 
 >differentiate between fighting and throwing.
 
 Theres the rub...
 
 
 >3) Learn Dagger - Fight and you gain the skill to fight
 with all 
 >dagger types (Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0.
 This only 
 >covers fighting, not throwing
 
 Eureka!  That must be what Richard must've
 though.  That The Course 
 for dagger gives you both as Fight.  But the connation
 implies 
 throwing dagger isa new skill.  But now that you word
 it that way it 
 makes sense. You fight WITH a throwing dagger but ot throw
 it.
 That makes more sense then the way its done now.  As
 the new player 
 read it Different.  I always bought it as 2 separate
 skills myself.
 But that's more clear the way you phrase it.
 Maybe i should add a * in case new players need copy of
 those rules...
 
 
 
 >4) Learn Dagger - Throw and gain the skill to throw all
 dagger types 
 >(again Fighting Dagger, Throwing Dagger) at EL0.
 Increase skill to 
 >'Throw a Fighting Dagger' and skill to 'Throw a Throwing
 Dagger' 
 >separately after that.
 >
 >
 >Someone may want to learn to throw fighting daggers, and
 the rules 
 >allow that. They are just not as good thrown as throwing
 daggers 
 >are. And throwing daggers are not as good to fight
 with.
 Yep.  I like how you word it.another
 I can explain it that way if he is still confused.
 I was never at this level 'new' at this point since '83 so
 my 
 experience was like of course its 2 skills...but I like how
 you 
 explain it.  I will append that sectio in case another
 new player 
 needs help and i send them my file.
 
 Great job!
 
 
 
 
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