Naval Ships and Tech discussion (LONG)

[Scott Adams]

 -=> Quoting scott.cohanNaval Ships and Tech discussion (LONG)SA.GOV to longsho
t <=-


 sc> The party is currently in the Elder Mountains near Caldo.  They
 sc> were looking for signs of Kotothi forces, since Caldo was attacked
 sc> recently. They managed to sneak into an underground Daoine Sidhe
 sc> stronghold, free the prisoners, and are making their way back to
 sc> Caldo, under heavy pursuit. First they ran into some goblins and
 sc> Daoine Sidhe, killed the goblins, ran off the DS; then they fled
 sc> some more, and the DS, seeing how handily they handled the
 sc> goblins, herded three Athach in their direction.  (This is still
 sc> in the beginning of the game, so I'm slowly making combat more
 sc> interesting and dangerous, so they'll get used to the system.)

        Never visited Caldo.  I like Port Doman and the Jungle area for
        Kotothi adventures.  With the mentality of port doman and such
        its a fun place (G)  Goblins are pretty simple to kill ..yep. :)
        That's the way I generally do.  Force a simple road bandit
        combat or something then get them something complex.  Like
        for the players in South Marentia they did just that through
        a random encounter.  Then an alal encounter which I'm going
        to merge INTO the adventure even though honestly it was a random one.

 sc> Kind of depends on the characters.  But 7 to 1 sounds about right.

        Yep.  The new player did a earthquake which made the alal fall
        in (but not his steed).  He would have been alive but one of
        the players hit (very lucky shot) with an arrow (NAV 6! shesh)
        and did 2 points which totaled to a lucky kill with the fall.


 sc> characters.  I   have a good character from a previous game that I
 sc> think I could write up   (although I'd collaborate with the player).
 sc> Would people like to see this?

 sc> sa>That would be interesting to see sample characters..you could
 sc> give them sa>here if you want.

 sc> Well, but it's even more separated than in the 'real' world. Full
 sc> Plate Armor is a fairly late development.  Brigandine armor doesn't
 sc> arrive until after 1350, and Full Plate doesn't become common (as
 sc> common as this armor ever becomes) until about 1440, and reaches it's
 sc> pinnacle (with fluting, gracile lines, and giant armored pointed
 sc> shoes) about 1480.  Unfortunately, gunpowder was invented in 1260.
 sc> Admittedly, it wasn't really used for much until the early 14th cen.
 sc> In 1326, Florence purchased guns and cannon.  Also, in 1411, Duke
 sc> John the Good of Burgundy had 4 thousand hand guns in his Ducal
 sc> Armory.
       I will not let gunpowder into the game likely.  Its just easy to
       say the 'powder' can't be found :).  As to armor I tend to let
       it go up to plate but most still use the standard leather/chain.

 sc> Also, while it is true that there was tech differences between
 sc> cultures, certain areas should be the same.  In the Sea of Tears, for
 sc> example, everyone should have _roughly_ the same tech, due to trading
 sc> back and forth.  From the Culture book, we know some places have
 sc> better metallurgical skill than others. We know that Rogizini
 sc> weapons are poorly constructed, we know that Katai's weaponsmithing
 sc> skills are poor, and we know that one tribe of barbarians (The
 sc> Kameran) have superb weapons, although this is probably due to a good
 sc> deposit of iron nearby (with perhaps a touch of phosphorous to
 sc> improve the temper), rather than steel-making skill (as has been
 sc> suggested).  I think it's safe to assume that every civilized nation
 sc> in the Perilous Lands is safely in the Iron Age.
        Well I still see some cultures who might be in the Bronze age
        with their weapons and armor.  I could probably find a culture
        for it.  The thing with trade is you have to figure in cultural
        differences.  Most may ignore rogizni or climan traders for
        fear or hatred while trade with other nations might go well.
        So some areas trade through middlemen or indirect.


 sc> But here's the problem I was having with the sea tech.  We've
 sc> already established that the Armor and Weapon tech is roughly 1450 or
 sc> so, with a curious lack of gunpowder.  However, the trireme was first
 sc> built about 700 BC, and lateen sails have been in use since the 2nd
 sc> century AD, although only on small craft until about AD 500.
 sc> Three-masted ships came into use around the 3rd century BC.  Rudders
 sc> come into play around 1200 or so, and became universal by 1400.  By
 sc> 1450, we have three-masted ships with square-rigging, then quickly
 sc> came superimposing sails.

        I tend to allow the full blown cannon ships of what most know
        to be the 'pirate' period.  But without cannons obviously.
        Replace cannons with catapult and greek fire weapons or the
        basic arrow/bolt/harpoon weapons.   So the full masts and sails
        would be there just not the other tech for my universe.  But
        you are correct its a confusing technology error that should
        be worked on.  Most games however have the same problem.  The
        makers tend to do this so the 'good' armor is out there and
        such for those who need it.  I've not seen any system (FRPG) that
        doesn't have plate for example.

 sc> So we have weapon and armor tech about AD 1450 and sea tech still
 sc> mired in the Classical Age.  (Of course, it's not as bad as say,
 sc> Hercules and Xena, what with steel weapons in the Bronze Age, The
 sc> presence of the Tomato, and Homer telling the story of Spartacus)
 sc> Also, we have Dechat, supposedly a great pirate base, described as
 sc> using penteconters, which were rendered obsolete by the trireme back
 sc> in 500 BC)

        That's TV for you.  TV isn't known for their accuracy :)

 sc> Here's some trireme info, derived from the trials of the Olympias (a
 sc> modern reconstruction of a 400 BC trireme)  Top Speed 8 knots,
 sc> Cruising Speed 4 knots, able to execute a 180 in an arc no wider than
 sc> two and a half ship lengths.  They admit that their training was
 sc> limited and that their oars were too heavy, so actual game speeds
 sc> should be slightly higher, but this gives you a rough idea.  I'd
 sc> guess 6 knots Cruising and maybe 12 for Top Speed.2 Crew for a

        What would you figure for a MR for those knot conversions or
        just use that as the MR?  (what I've done in the past).

 sc> trireme: 170 rowers (31 to a side in the uppermost position, 27 each
 sc> in the other two) 5 officers:  Captain (political appointee)
 sc> Helmsman (who stopped steering around the fifth cen.
 sc> BC) Timebeater (Once did exactly this, now cheif rowing
 sc> officer) pentekontarchos (paymaster, purchasing &
 sc> recruiting officer) Bow Officer (foredeck lookout)
 sc> Also some others:
 sc> Flautist
 sc> Deckhands to manage the sails
 sc> Ship's carpenter
 sc> Quartermaster (did actually steering)
 sc> And sometimes, a ship's doctor

        That's what I generally had as well.  With minor changes depending
        on the ship function.  The timebeater (who kept the rowers in
        synch) also sometimes had a trumpet with one or two others which
        when they rammed would try to drown out the captain's orders of
        the OTHER ship.

 sc> And roughly 12-16 marines, "14 or so"
        Just about right.

 sc> making the total complement around 200.
        Those numbers always amuse me with ancient ships like that :)

 sc> Trireme's dimensions:
 sc> Length: 120'9"
 sc> Beam  : 17'9"
 sc> On the waterline, it measured 105'8" by 12'
        That info will help!  How many decks/compartments say
        for a standard pirate ship would you say?

 sc> Although the triremes were basically the same, there was some
 sc> variation.  The Athenian navy favored ramming atttacks.  Since this
 sc> required speed and maneuverability, they favored light hull with a
 sc> minimum of marines, 10 spearmen and three or four archers.  The
 sc> Corinthians, however, emphasised grappling and boarding, and
 sc> therefore built heavier vessels carrying more marines.
 sc> Also, there were two other types of trireme, the
        Eqytians also liked to ram because they had alot of cannon fodder
        ships sometimes.  Phonenicans (the kings of the sea) just had
        quick ships (G)

 sc> two levels of seats were removed and convered into stalls for thirty
 sc> horses.
        What would you guess in gear (cargo) would a ship hold/carry
        say in weight?

 sc> Evidently, even with the simple diet of the Ancient Greeks (grain for
 sc> porridge or bread, some legumes and a handful of figs or olives), a
 sc> trireme could only carry supplies to feed the crew for a day or two,
 sc> perhaps three at most.  So how do triremes get from Affea to Clima
 sc> (560 miles) without stopping anywhere?  (Since everyone hates them, I
 sc> can't believe that they fight their way back and forth)  Even with
 sc> Friendly Current and summoning wind to fill the sails, I can't see a
 sc> trireme making over 180 miles/day.  Ok, lets take the 4 knots figure
 sc> above for cruising speed, increase it to 6 for experienced crews,

        Generally 60 miles could be reasonable but 100 nahh...
        Well they could use Water from stone and the like for food
        and the other water powers.  But that is interesting figures
        on food limits..hmmmm


 sc> sort of portable hole, or cornucopias, so they can pack more supplies
 sc> in, or they have better ships then triremes.  Now, if we consider
 sc> magicians to be as common as carpenters, then every ship could have
 sc> their own mage, who might be able to conjure up enough food for

        Well Climan-sea-mages are known to be one at least one per ship
        according to something I read.  Forgot if it was in the culture
        book or not or from other cultures other than clima.


 sc> everyone as the tip continues.  Of course, then we'd need a new spell
 sc> which almost everyone would have.  And also, mages would not be
 sc> accorded any more respect than craftsmen if they were this common.
 sc> I'm not even going to consider the Lemasans and their trips to the
 sc> Eastern Lands.

         So then your probably assuming they have ships of the size
         like I'm assuming (1600s or so) period.

 sc> Or perhaps the Climans have developed a way to greatly increase the
 sc> payload and distance of the Travel Power: Teleportation.  Perhaps
 sc> they have permanent sea gates so they can instantly travel from Clima
 sc> to Fort Kira and back in only a single day.  Personally, I'd prefer
 sc> to think that the ship tech is a little better than that stated.

        hehe...interesting but that would give them so much of an advantage
        they'd conquer more than what they have.  So its safe to say
        they don't have gates.

 sc> The information that I found was from two books:
 sc> Ships and Seafaring in ancient times, by Lionel Casson sc> &
 sc> Arms & Armor of the Medieval Knight, by David Edge and John Miles

        Cool!  Maybe I'll find them.

        I found a dragon magzine article (in text file format) that
        came to me through one network.  It has some sea info and
        ship info that I like including crew, dimensions, etc.
        So I might just merge all the info into one concept for the game.

 sc> Scott Cohan
     Scott Adams (scott is such a nice name)

... Would you prefer to be concious or unconcious during the mating?-G'kar
--- Blue Wave v2.12


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