Naval Ships and Tech discussion (LONG)

[Scott Cohan]

       sa>I will not let gunpowder into the game likely.  Its just easy
       sa>to say the 'powder' can't be found :).  As to armor I tend to
       sa>let it go up to plate but most still use the standard
       sa>leather/chain.

  Well, I wasn't about to let gunpowder in the game.  Unfortunately, the raw
  ingredients are everywhere, perhaps they just don't explode here (the only
  explosive is jeweler's rouge?) ;-). Thank you, Mr. Zelazny.  No, really, I'm
  just not going to worry about gunpowder.  As far as armor, I think it would be
  safe to say that it is artificially inflated (tech-wise) thanks to the
  Dwarves.

        sa>Well I still see some cultures who might be in the Bronze
        sa>age with their weapons and armor.  I could probably find a
        sa>culture for it.  The thing with trade is you have to figure
        sa>in cultural differences.  Most may ignore rogizni or climan
        sa>traders for fear or hatred while trade with other nations
        sa>might go well.
        sa>So some areas trade through middlemen or indirect.

  Like L'p'nth buying food from the Sea of Tears through the Cerulean Empire?
  Also, don't forget that countries can pick up tech knowledge through simple
  observation (wheels and stirrups) or captured war booty or even simple
  espionage.

 sc> But here's the problem I was having with the sea tech.  We've
 sc> already established that the Armor and Weapon tech is roughly 1450 or
 sc> so, with a curious lack of gunpowder.  However, the trireme was first
 sc> built about 700 BC, and lateen sails have been in use since the 2nd
 sc> century AD, although only on small craft until about AD 500.
 sc> Three-masted ships came into use around the 3rd century BC.  Rudders
 sc> come into play around 1200 or so, and became universal by 1400.  By
 sc> 1450, we have three-masted ships with square-rigging, then quickly
 sc> came superimposing sails.

        sa>I tend to allow the full blown cannon ships of what most
        sa>know to be the 'pirate' period.  But without cannons
        sa>obviously. Replace cannons with catapult and greek fire
        sa>weapons or the basic arrow/bolt/harpoon weapons.   So the
        sa>full masts and sails would be there just not the other tech
        sa>for my universe.  But you are correct its a confusing
        sa>technology error that should be worked on.  Most games
        sa>however have the same problem.  The makers tend to do this
        sa>so the 'good' armor is out there and such for those who need it.
        sa>I've not seen any system (FRPG) that doesn't have plate for
        sa>example.

  But the main problem is that the ships of the 'pirate' period (1620-1720) were
  designed to use cannon.  Elements of their design are critical for cannon,
  like the gun deck.  Also, there's not much room on the deck for a catapult.
  And Greek Fire?  You would need some sort of boiler to build up the pressure
  to 'fire' the fire any distance, and that's a little too close to steamships
  for me.  (that's of course, assuming that the reconstructions are correct).
  Trust me, if I thought I could get away with sloops and flutes and barqs, I
  would, because I have some good ship info on them (from 'Pirates!").


 sc> making the total complement around 200.
        sa>Those numbers always amuse me with ancient ships like that :)
  Why?  Do you think it's amusingly small or unbelieveably large?


 sc> Trireme's dimensions:
 sc> Length: 120'9"
 sc> Beam  : 17'9"
 sc> On the waterline, it measured 105'8" by 12'
        sa>That info will help!  How many decks/compartments
        sa>say for a standard pirate ship would you say?
  Depends on what you consider a 'standard' pirate ship.  Usually sloops were
  involved, although captured merchantmen were used as well, and barqs and such.


 sc> two levels of seats were removed and convered into stalls for thirty
 sc> horses.
        sa>What would you guess in gear (cargo) would a ship
        sa>hold/carry say in weight?
  Well, how much do 30 horses and their food for two days weigh?


 sc> sort of portable hole, or cornucopias, so they can pack more supplies
 sc> in, or they have better ships then triremes.  Now, if we consider
 sc> magicians to be as common as carpenters, then every ship could have
 sc> their own mage, who might be able to conjure up enough food for

        sa>Well Climan-sea-mages are known to be one at least one per
        sa>ship according to something I read.  Forgot if it was in the
        sa>culture book or not or from other cultures other than clima.

  No, it's not in the Culture Book.  It's a small reference from the Tower of
  the Dead, if you roll a 10 for Sea Yovage Encounters:
  "A trireme of the Climan fleet catches the ship and boards...For the Climans,
  about 80 plus the Priestess commaning and a Character-class Captain are
  potential combatants.  (The others are galley slaves.)..."

  1) I've already mentioned the implausability of galley slaves (not
  economically sound)
  2) It says Priestess, which doesn't necessarily mean mage.  I only have the
  first page of the "The Priesthood" article, so I really can't comment on it
  (If anyone would like to fax me a copy, please do so.) That, plus the Priestly
  Magic section would be really great.  In return, I have the Sea of tears
  article (which I got from Wout) and I also have a zox of "Doom Manor".

         sa>So then your probably assuming they have ships of the
         sa>size like I'm assuming (1600s or so) period.

  Oh, yes.  Definately something on the large side, like whatever the Portugese
  used to get to Japan.


        sa>I found a dragon magzine article (in text file format) that came to
        sa>me through one network.  It has some sea info and ship info that I
        sa>like including crew, dimensions, etc. So I might just merge all the
        sa>info into one concept for the game.

  I'd love to see it, if you could forward it to me.  Is this the one written by
  (can't think of hte name, president of Fantek)?

 sc> Scott Cohan
     sa>Scott Adams (scott is such a nice name)
  Why, yes, yes it is.
sa>.... Would you prefer to be concious or unconcious during the
sa>mating?-G'kar --- Blue Wave v2.12

  "Things were better before the Black Ships came.  Before they poisoned the
  wells."