[PnP] how virgin is virgin enough?

[Wout Broere]

Even now I can't wait till this is finished. I expect it to be in line 
with your other economic stuff, so the detail will be fabulous.

With the risk of sounding like Scott: how about including prices for 
magic items also (big, big grin).

;>

Wout

Burton Choinski wrote:
> I'm working on a deep refiguring of the P&P economy for my game,  
> somewhat based on RQ concepts but also based on real-world data.  The  
> problem is that it's all bottom up, so I'm only really at the food- 
> stuffs stage and have not gotten into the crafted goods yet.
> 
> On Feb 9, 2009, at 6:39 PM, J Hooten wrote:
> 
>> Natural magics is a major problem area.
>> They are quite valuable yet quite fragile under the rules.
>> If I recall correctly they imply a dispel can ruin the material  
>> somewhere?
>> Also a failed enhance ruins the material in many cases, gems  
>> especially.
>> So some method to repair these gems is needed or literally there  
>> wont be
>> any more gems to enhance.
>> Its a major magic economics question!
>>
>> If its too easy to break and hard to fix then the gems 'value' is  
>> lower
>> and an enhanced one is much higher
>> You would only try to enhance one in the best purified and other  
>> boosted
>> means as its nearly irreplaceable.
>> If its easy to fix then the failures are not a big deal and the  
>> price of
>> virgin gems goes up and enhanced ones down some.
>>
>> I always ran a version of Purification can be used to remove others
>> effects and thus return things to 'virgin' but that may have been  
>> too easy.
>> Maybe the El used has to exceed the El on the object before it can  
>> work?
>> If it was enhanced it could still have an MDV to resist being  
>> purified,
>> but once more low level casters that fail will have little penalty
>> So either of those do not limit things much
>> Set the effective MDV higher? Like 20 area?
>> Thats enough to scare away lower level casters.
>> Or set two levels, one for failed one for abysmals?
>> Or use same but set the failure of the purify on abysmal is an  
>> abysmal?
>> So badly failed objects would be risky to bring back but possible.
>>
>> But remember any of this is setting part of the magic economics of the
>> game and should be checked carefully!
>>
>> There already exists unbalance in the economics.
>> Large metal items are much harder to make than small ones.
>> Wood or Leather items are easiest to make.
>> Thus your small amulets and various other items can be made quickly  
>> and
>> cheap.
>> But major armors require much more time and materials even though the
>> magic used may be the same.
>> You may wish to set the skill check needed for enchantable works  
>> high to
>> limit the junk magic.
>> Of course some decide certain rituals are needed and thus set more
>> effort for all magic creations.
>> Nothing wrong with that, its just house rules setting the economic
>> factors again.
>>
>> Item costs should figure some factor for that labor as well as the  
>> magic
>> and Mages should not work cheap.
>> So much per day plus so much per mana used plus expenses seems fair.
>> Note that mana and labor costs will go up based on Mel or other such
>> factors, so you pay much more for higher quality work.
>>
>> If anyone has a pricing guide for regular items, I can try to fit a
>> formula to them that follows such rules.
>> I have been wanting to work it out but never settled on a good price  
>> range.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alex Koponen wrote:
>>> As both GM and player (with enchanter) I play that only the last  
>>> stage
>>> of manufacture from raw materials is necessary for one to be able to
>>> enchant it. As GM I would give minor bonuses to those who  
>>> competently do
>>> the earlier stages as well.
>>>
>>> Example A: Enchanter cannot enchant boots that were made by another
>>> bootmaker or even from leather precut and marked by another  
>>> bootmaker,
>>> but can enchant boots he makes even though copying another  
>>> bootmaker's
>>> pattern and using leather bought from the tanner, butcher or
>>> slaughterhouse...he doesn't need to raise, kill, skin and tan the
>>> leather himself...though I would give minor bonuses if he did so. I
>>> would give slightly bigger bonuses for the closer stages, in this  
>>> case
>>> tanning than for skinning, etc.
>>>
>>> Example B: I would allow a minor bonus to an enchanter using raw  
>>> ore to
>>> make the iron and steel of a weapon or armor. I would also allow the
>>> enchanter to roll with no bonus or penalty should he be working from
>>> pigs of iron bought from a source that was iron ore. I would impose a
>>> penalty of a small chance of automatic failure of enchantments if the
>>> item was made from scrap that might include some material that was
>>> either already enchanted by someone else or had previously failed  
>>> being
>>> enchanted/enhanced/ensorcelled. If the scrap did include such then  
>>> the
>>> final product would automatically fail when permanent magics were  
>>> cast
>>> upon it. This failure might have an increased chance of an Abysmal.  
>>> So
>>> using Detection, Perception or some other method of determining the
>>> 'virgin' status of what you are about to work on or use permanent  
>>> magics
>>> on is a wise precaution. Exception: If instead of just to a red  or
>>> white heat the scrap was fully melted to a liquid state then it would
>>> regain its 'virgin' status. Note that a forge melting iron is much
>>> hotter than the usual forge used for pounding out iron and steel.
>>>
>>> This makes enchanting jewelry and gems problematical as unless you  
>>> have
>>> dug up the gem yourself the odds are good that someone else has  
>>> already
>>> tried to enhance, enchant or ensorcel it. Large flawless 'virgin'  
>>> gems
>>> would have quite a premium over other gems due to the demand by magic
>>> users and their clients. Dwarves and most large mining operations  
>>> likely
>>> have set traditions, rules and laws pertaining to who gets the  
>>> chance to
>>> cast magic upon enhanceable gemstones. Restoring the 'virgin'  
>>> status of
>>> gems is quite likely impossible for low MEL enchanters...perhaps
>>> possible for high MEL enchanters. To do so would at a minimum require
>>> high EL in Dispel and Regeneration spell variants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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